Bad dealers still working while good dealers can't find work.

[AKA; Jimmy Jack]

Does it bother any of the rest of you that with so many really good knowledgeable dealers out of work here in Vegas that so many of the casinos continue to employ a lot of dealers that don't have a clue? I love to play but when I do I end up not being able to focus on the game because the dealers are making so many mistakes.
Back before Christmas I went to one of the "locals" casinos not far off the strip that stays very busy (I won't name the casino). After being seated, I never was greeted by the dealer (a simple "welcome to the table" is all that is expected with maybe a "good luck" thrown in by the really good dealers), never asked if I wanted to wait til the button passed or any of the other salutations, that as a dealer I feel every player deserves when joining a table.
Due to it being very busy I was at a table that did not have an automatic shuffler so the dealer was hand shuffling (a skill that every good dealer should be second nature). I was in shock when the dealer started shuffling like they were on a blackjack table instead of the poker table, the dealer was shuffling so high I could see the value of each card as it was riffled. After cutting the cards and placing them in there left hand again I was appalled when the dealer capped the deck (placed their right hand completely over the top of the deck to square it). While this dealer had a fairly good pitch no sooner than they got the last card out to the player on the button until they capped the deck again. well it was only a few minutes until the push so I got up and waited until I saw the next dealer approach the table.
I took my seat before the hand was over and awaited the new dealer pushing in. As soon as the new dealer sat down instead of greeting the table he engaged one of the other players (who I later found out also worked as a dealer there but had EO'ed) at the table in a conversation in Chinese. Now if I was managing the poker room this would be grounds for immediate dismissal, there is never a reason for a dealer to speak a foreign language while in the box, remember it is ENGLISH ONLY at the poker table. This dealer also shuffled so high it was possible to read the cards every time.
Over the course of the next three hours I witnessed so many procedural violations I finally just got up and quit. Of the six dealers that dealt to me; all six high shuffled, five capped the deck (some capped the deck after the flop and the turn in addition to before the first card was dealt and after the last card to the button), three rolled the deck when pulling the bets it, only two bothered to greet the table when they sat down and one had such a frown on her face the whole time she was dealing that most of the table did not toke her and talked about how she brings the whole table down when she deals by having a look on her face like her best friend just died.
Another dealer though he was really fast when he dealt pitched so high that if you were in the one or ten seat (I was in the one so I know this is correct because I tried one hand just to see) and you lowered your seat down and laid back a bit you could catch a glimpse of the cards. You might not be able to make out the exact value but I was able to tell the color and if they were paint or a card with very few or very many pips on it. (Like I said I only tried it one hand when I knew I going to fold because I needed a bathroom break). Another allowed a player to take a bet that had been put across the line to take it back even though she had announced the raise, this coming two hands after a similar situation in which she made another player leave the bet in when he had tried to just call a raised hand. Another dealer (who I later found out is a assistant room manager) started counting down the table bank on top of the table (where it easily could have gotten mixed in with the pot) in the middle of a hand. Yet another took it upon herself to tell two players, who were talking quietly amongst themselves about a mistake that a prior dealer had made, that they needed to "shut up and just play cards".
Now the worst part of all this is after my session was over I approached the room manager and voiced my concerns. He assured me that he would address these problems with his dealers. Well I returned three weeks later (plenty of time to address any problem and correct it) and I observed several of the dealers, there was no evidence that any steps had been taken to correct any of the problems I had spoke to the room manager about. Dealers were still capping the deck, rolling the deck, high shuffling, not calling action because they were to busy talking to someone else that worked there but was off work and playing and high pitching everywhere I looked.
I run into this at almost all of the casinos here in Vegas with the exception of a few like Binion's, and the Bellagio. It would seem to me that since Nevada is a right to work state, that any diligent poker room manager would start evaluating EVERY dealer on their staff and start firing those dealers who are incompetent. Unlike several years ago, when the poker rooms HAD to hire just about anybody that could hold a deck and pitch a card to have enough dealers to staff the room, today there are hundreds of highly trained, competent, diligent poker dealers in Las Vegas who would gladly work in any of these rooms. I would hope that every poker room manager would strive to have the best staff in the business but most are willing to sit back and conduct business as usual.
Well thanks for listening to my rant and if your a dealer who either can't find work or is not working as much as you would like feel free to add your comments and maybe things will turn around soon.

[vincent harte]

drives me to drinki share your sentiments

[Michael Raymer]

Well, I'm glad that someone else is noticing. And as a dealer that is having a very tough time finding work, yes this is bothering me in a big way. For us living in the Pacific NW, we get to congregate at the Poker Roundup in Pendleton, OR (BTW, in this forum I see nothing wrong with mentioning names. In fact, I think we specifically should). For every good dealer, there are at least four mediocre dealers. And it just gets worse if you're an Omaha 8 player. I wait until it's my big blind before I step out and have a smoke. I walk out to the casino proper, light up, take my time, maybe chat with someone, walk back to the table, and they've played one hand! This is ridiculous. And I'm not just mentioning one or two notable times. Every time, and I've been going to the Roundup for years.
I've been in the casino biz since '95 and dealt poker since '97 and I can tell you one thing whether it's bad poker dealing or bad pit dealing. It actually isn't the dealers' fault. Once you audition and get a schedule, you're on your own buster. Observation, constructive critizism, and evaluation from the floor staff and management does not happen. Most do not seem to care unless they are dealing with a specific complaint. In my career, I've had one floor supervisor, One, count my hands per down. I've trained a lot of dealers in my time (I've placed a moratorium on training anyone else), and I preach to all of them that whatever bad habits they start with, those are the bad habits that they'll probably wind up with because no one will correct them. So we get rolled decks (which drive me crazy), lack of attention, lack of speed. And yes my friends, I have actually had a dealer cut two handed every single hand, with two supervisors on duty right behind her.
I'm depressed. Seriously, I can't find work, circumstances took me out of Tunica, I'm praying to God I can get into Reno, San Diego or both, I'd give a kidney to get a paying job in LV and I'm stuck because there are so many crappy dealers out there taking the jobs I should have. How do you walk into a poker room and tell the boss that 75% of his dealers are stiffs, 90% of his waiting list are stiffs and he'd be much happier if he just hired you instead? Really, if there's an answer to that, please tell me.

[AKA; Jimmy Jack]

In regards to not mentioning names there are a few reasons I choose not to "name names"- The most important reason being that it serves no purpose. I would like to think that at some point the poker room managers here in Vegas will wake up and realize what a golden opportunity that they have right now to staff their rooms with only the best dealers. If I was to name the casino and then the poker room manager finally decided that their customers deserve only the best (no I am not on drugs I am just dreaming I guess) dealers instead of the inferior dealers they have now, I would hate to have the manager not consider me for the position because I had posted a negative post about the room.
Also I think I could have just left a blank space there and allowed anyone who read it put any name they want in there. It would not matter whether you put the name of a strip or off strip casino in the blank, because I see the same type of mistakes happen at all but a few of the poker rooms in town (Let me take a minute to give Binion's some props on this subject. Due to having worked there [as a special events dealer] I know for a fact that the managers take this very seriously, dealers are counseled anytime that the supervisors notice any procedural errors and the floor staff does a very good job of monitoring the dealers to ensure that procedures are followed).
When you say it is not the dealers fault, you are only partially correct. If a dealer does not care enough to try to improve their skills they will continue to just be bad to mediocre. Even though I have been dealing poker for over ten years (most of it in underground illegal rooms prior to moving to Vegas), I still believe that there is room for improvement. I have yet to see any dealer that is prefect, I try to observe other dealers to learn from not only their strengths, but also to look at their weaknesses to make sure I am not doing anything wrong. Over the years I have changed many things in my dealing including my pitch, if I see a dealer that has really good mechanics I try to compare how they do things vs what I do. If I can incorporated it into my dealing I will go home and practice until I have it down (one thing I have learned is that left handed dealers have a completely different pitch from right handed dealers which will not always interchange). The funny part about it is when I do make a change I almost always have a supervisor comment on it, so that tells me that they do observe what the dealers are doing.
If these supervisors can tell when I make a minor change, how do they overlook the major mistakes that other dealers are making. Maybe we can get some insight from some of the managers on this part. Could it be that they are restricted from giving constructive criticism by company policy or are they afraid of how a dealer will handle it? I personally feel good when I receive constructive criticism because it tells me that the other person cares enough to want to see me be the best I can be.
As to the last part about how do you tell the boss in a poker room that his dealers are stiffs, I think the only way to approach that is to educate the public as to what the difference in a good dealer is versus what they are getting in their poker rooms now. When the people that support the room start to make complaints only then will the managers wake up and start to make changes. Of course by that time it won't really matter because the room will be closing fro lack of business. Stop and think about it, if every time that we observed a dealer making a serious procedure violation, that we raked our chips up, went to the manager and lodged a complaint, then cashed out and left, how soon until those rooms followed the path of other rooms that have closed? Player apathy is as big of a problem as management overlooking these mistakes, why expend energy fixing the problem when the players do not voice their concerns.

[Mike]

I have been in the business for 27 years, working all over the country.I was a Vegas dealer from 81 to 91. The only thing I can advise ,is to not play at a table where the dealer does not know there job. If enough players leave a table that a has a bad dealer, the casino will eventually have to do something about it. WE HOPE !!! Make management aware of why you are leaving a game

[Balweg]

Thanks for all bad comments that you posted about bad dealers still working ...obviously your talking about d orleans poker room..too bad that you cant get a job there huh..because of your attitude..your the best poker dealer coz you been dealing wsop..guess what anybody can deal at wsop and if your talking about yourself as being a good dealer why cant you find a job,i know for sure anybody here in Las Vegas that is good dealer should get a dealing job in any poker room theres always opening for a Good Dealer....Good Luck

[AKA; Jimmy Jack]

Balweg said:

Thanks for all bad comments that you posted about bad dealers still working ...obviously your talking about d orleans poker room..too bad that you cant get a job there huh..because of your attitude..your the best poker dealer coz you been dealing wsop..guess what anybody can deal at wsop and if your talking about yourself as being a good dealer why cant you find a job,i know for sure anybody here in Las Vegas that is good dealer should get a dealing job in any poker room theres always opening for a Good Dealer....Good Luck

Well it looks like someone did not bother to read the complete post as the post was in no way directed at any single poker room but at all the poker rooms that continue to overlook simple procedural violations. When I say simple procedural violations I am talking about things that any dealer that ever picked up a deck of cards should have learned before they pitched their first card.

Too many of these dealers must have either never attended a dealing school or the school they attended never taught basis procedures or ethics. How hard is to learn to shuffle properly? Or the house shuffle (I actually sat down at a table where the dealer did not even know what I meant when I asked them what their house shuffle was, this after they had shuffle, shuffle shuffle, box, shuffle, box, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, box, shuffle, shuffle, used both hands to cut, capped the deck then started pitching all the while carrying on a conversation with one of the players at the table about where they were going when she got off work) When I sit down to play I expect to get what I am paying for and if the dealer does not understand how to properly do their job, am I really getting what I am paying for every time they take a rake?

Had you read the full post, you also would have seen that I do not claim to be the best dealer, but I do know what I am doing and what is expected of me when I step into the box. I also continually ask dealers who I trust and respect their opinions to evaluate every aspect of my dealing. Just like the army, I strive to be all I can be.

In addition to dealing I also help teach classes where my main responsibility is to focus on procedure and ethics. Most schools barely touch on procedure and from what I am seeing at the tables most dealers today are not fully taught ethics. As much as it seem some dealers do not care about either of these subjects, I believe these two areas are just as important, if not more, as pitching cards and reading hands. Procedures are in place to protect everyone; from the house, to the players, to the dealer. And the ethics protect the long term survival of the game.

In regards to your comment "i know for sure anybody here in Las Vegas that is good dealer should get a dealing job in any poker room theres always opening for a Good Dealer" my question to you has to be- Have you been living under a rock or are you just smoking crack? One only need read the newspaper to know that there are hundreds of good dealers out of work. Almost every company in Las Vegas has had to reduce staffing and layoff workers with the gaming industry being one of the hardest hit.

My whole point is that just because someone managed to slip through the cracks and get hired to deal poker, if they cannot or will not learn to do their job properly then the poker room managers need to admit their mistakes and replace those unqualified dealers with competent dealers. If poker is going to survive, every poker room manager should take the time to be sure that every dealer that sits down in the box is the best that is available. And every poker dealer needs to speak up and bring these faults to the attention of management

If you feel threatened by that prospect then I suggest that you take a hard look at yourself and pinpoint your weaknesses (yes we all have them), only then can you begin to improve. However, if you are willing to accept the status quo and not speak up when you see bad dealers making bad mistakes, when poker dries up and dies because of it, do not say you were not warned.

[Balweg]

ALL DEALERS SHOULD STICK TOGETHER...HELP EACH OTHER..

I read the complete post and you know for sure which room your talking about and PLs.Dont Bluff"
And if you feel threatened by that prospect Pls pls...take a very hard look at yourself before criticizing any poker dealer at any poker room pls..pls. no one s perfect i guess except you...i hope
And if you help to teach classes make sure not to skip...that when dealers go play in any poker room to behave,show a respect,never never trash the dealer in the box and very very important to take good care of them after winning any pot.Be a good model treat someone like how they want to be treated especially when they are break in dealers..everybody started that way as a newbie..

Good dealers never never brag about how good they are...that s the whole point of this post and pls.if you can just stop posting negative stuff about any dealers here in Las Vegas maybe some dealers will get lucky and find a dealing job somewhere...you guys should help each other especially in time of needs..and fyi i never smoke crack in my life..have you?i guessed im missing out...oh well lets all get along and Bravo for all Las Vegas Dealers they are the best of them all...wsop is coming up ..so make some money and everybody s happy....i have no intention of any harm ....i just want everybody to get along ...Thats all. God Bless America...

[AKA; Jimmy Jack]

Wow I guess it is what it is. But how long are they suppose to be break in dealers? I think three or more years of dealing is long past break in status. And everyone of the dealers I was referring to has at least that much experience. I still say every dealer should be evaluated on a regular basis and if they do not correct there mistakes by the next evaluation ship them out the door. Because so many people have the same attitude that the dealers should be taken care of no matter what is why we have this problem. Sorry but if a dealer has more than a month or two of real life experience and they still are making day one mistakes then I am not going to tip. The word tips come from the saying "To Insure Proper Service" so if I do not get proper service I do not tip. Tipping is optional not mandatory and if a dealer is not making what he should in TIPS he needs to look at why. I have no problem tipping when I receive good service but I am going to be held hostage to the belief that any type of service deserves a tip.
I would love to be able to sit down and play where I do not have to constantly be watching the dealer. I want to be able to see the top card in the deck at all time and I do not want to see the bottom of the deck. I want to hear the official language of the country that we live in. If I ever tip a dealer and they do not look me in the eye and say "thank you" but only tap the table with it, that will be the last tip I ever give them. How many times do you hear players ask the dealer "did I get you that hand?" because the dealer never acknowledged the toke. Courteous service and respect from the dealer will get the same but how hard is it greet the table and say thank you?
I am not trying to be negative but I do hate to see so many really good dealers out of work while the bad dealers get rewarded for bad service and worse manners.

[Balweg]

Oh well...I guessed you dont get it...This will be my last reply to your post.Tipping is mandatory but it is a COURTESY to your co-dealer no matter what either good or bad their just making minimum rate per hour and trying to make a living everyday,im sure they are doing the best they can to run the game and trying hard to improve among themselves,and if your choice is not to tip them so be it but keep it to yourself"you dont have to post here just remember...what goes around comes around and i see it happen all the time.Anyway those dealers make a decent living everyday especially at that local casino that you mentioned eventhough there is always one like you at the table coz those local players go there and treated them like almost family theres still a lot of very nice and pleasant players that play there everyday so one like you im sure is not needed especially posting negative article about those nice,pleasant and hardworker poker dealers.And pls.this is enough posting negative topic about dealers,why can you post something positive and educational for a dealer sake theres so much hatred in your heart,good gracious..whats wrong with you im wondering..are you so jealos of those dealers that have stable job at that local casino thats why your targeting them..im sure if you post a nice and positive comment about that local casino they might help you get in there to get a secure job just like them,i know those dealers stick together especially those chinese your talking about..they support each other.So leave them alone will you...and mind your own business its their losses not yours just remember next time that your in the box and you see those dealers playing at your table beware...what goes around comes around...good luck dealing...my friend.

Thanks a lot for all the comment ...no more reply from me im retiring for good and going to a paradise.Beware my friend they are watching you out there.
Good Luck...and God Bless

[Al]

I also would like to comment that getting a job is based on the law of supply and demand. At one point in time, casinos are opening up their poker rooms (Venetian, MGM, Wynn, etc.) and poker dealers are trying to get to whatever they think suits the best of their interest. Do not apply for a job when there are already a lot of candidates around. Apply for it when it's hot and being in demand. Also, additional skills like mathematical, people and the like would help any dealer.

I hope that helps.

[skyeryder]

Just thought i would say, these things are not limited to poker rooms. Check out some of the new "party pits" most of these girls have never dealt, or are barely trained. While some of them look good, I wouldn't sit with them. Baccarat dealers are the worst in most houses. They don't call the game, or when they do its incorrect. The dealers feel free to speak in other languages all the time and make fun of players who are less than lucky. I guess though when the house allows the player to run the game and I dont mean big bacc, thats what you get. Many supervisors feel this sucks but when the bigger bosses allow it for some players. I guess i am trying to say its not always the dealers fault. some houses no matter what the game allow the probs to continue to keep what they feel are the "big" players and forget that those guys are not the only players! As far as critiising, yer I guess I am, i am not perfect but I dealt in a high limit room for several years dealing big baccarat, roulette, mini baccarat, and black jack, I made very good tokes, because I was a good dealer, you have to know your guests. They dont teach this any more. You get get basic training in schools, less in break in houses, then because most houses don't worry about it, you just get fired if you dont hack it. They dont even tell you what your doing wrong...unless you dont understand the language well enough to get it anyway. I was trained in house, by the company I worked for then and those lessons stayed with me. I hate the way most dealers are taught here, its very basic and very unprofessional. just my rant sorry.......

[Michael Raymer]

Good post Sky. I knew it wasn't just me that feels this way. If ongoing constructive critism isn't part of a casinos business plan, everyone loses.

BTW, the moratorium I mentioned above regarding training new poker dealers: I had to lift it. I'm opening a new card room where I live. It's not big enough to ask for dealers here, and none of the locals who have experience want to leave the places they're at (which isn't stupid of them). So, there will be 6 or 7 more poker dealers in the world coming up in a couple of weeks. But, they will be trained well, and I do provide constructive critism. A year from now, I might even cut a couple of them loose for the 2010 World Series, just so they can see for themselves how far good (and bad) training can get you.